PAT: And I just felt like it was in one of those moments that contains everything that's good about us as people. Because you begin with a mother's lick that ends up with a deep, deep change in the baby, not just the good, warm, fuzzy feeling, but a fundamental shift in who that baby is, and who that baby will be. Listen Jan 27, 2023 Birthstory A sperm, an egg, two wombs, four countries, and money. PAT: Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. BARBARA HARRIS: Aw, you blew him a kiss? Also, thanks to Carl Zimmer whose latest is. She'll be two in January. They like to hang out in the water and the females like to lay eggs in the water. JAD: Anyhow, so you got this guy, Paul Kammerer, who's good with animals. Because while you might have a lot of influence, you know, genetically speaking, over your kids and their kids, you don't seem to have a lot of control. It's such a surprising result. Looking for patterns in cardiovascular diseases, high blood pressure, and such. She started to wish again that she could have a daughter. I'm graduating in December. I mean, it's pretty common but like, here's a for instance, my dad from my entire life had this thing where if someone was whistling, he would. And since Kammerer kept the heat up, toads basically had to stay there, in this watery place that they had not evolved for. In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. And I packed up my stuff, it's pretty much done. Its gonna get messy. ], I'm going to go out into the streets and offer addicted women money to use birth control. Radiolab is an outstanding radio show broadcast out of New York City on WNYC. She was thinking BARBARA HARRIS: "Everybody's motivated by money., BARBARA HARRIS: Can I offer these women money to use birth control? And um BARBARA HARRIS: I had asked for a newborn, so when the social worker called me, she said, "I have this cute little baby girl for you but she's eight months old. But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. He was miserable to look at. PAT: A year later, she gets another call. The lady knew why we were there. BARBARA HARRIS: I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. Like, I mean, as far as positives can go, I think I hit the jackpot. Who are you? LATIF: Still, still standing. And that number, by the way, has grown a lot. Frankly, this makes being 9, 10, 11, 12 like a rather crucial. Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. SAM KEAN: Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. It's a little odd, actually. The bit of DNA that will give this baby when it grows up the instincts to be nice to its baby, and lick that baby. She was totally an oops kid. And when methyl groups stick to that part of the DNA, the maternal instinct is effectively turned off. Your boys will first grow taller and taller for the next few years, and when they get to be about 9, 10 years old, they're going to stop growing just for a few years. You know, they say it only takes one time. And I think that no, I didn't plan on it but I wouldn't take her back for anything because she made me better. Well, so here's the thing. JAD: How do those cycles perpetuate? The results are obvious to you. That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. A couple of days later, I had already bonded with her so much, it was as if I gave birth to her. And then they're going to basically revel at that particular spot and turn on that gene. You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. This great. [chuckles]. You're now hearing Lamarck's name invoked these days because there are things beyond genes that we pass down to our children. Okay, well of them, don't really know what happened to her. Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. ], You get them $200 each, which they can spend on crack. Radiolab: From Tree to Shining Tree LISTEN Three guests: Suzanne Simard, a professor of forest ecology and teacher at the University of British Columbia, Jennifer Frazer, a science writer that has a blog called The Artful Amoeba, and Roy Halling, a mycologist. Maybe you can explain this to me, Robert. To any drug-addicted woman who will agree to have no more babies. He actually coined the word biology, too. Listen Feb 3, 2023 Ukraine: The Handoff Pregnancy, and choice, in a war. [foreign language]. He is passionate about scholarly writing, World History, and Political sciences. Now the Sweden story from our last segment left us both feeling a little strange. No, I've only had somebody call and say they regret that they didn't stay on birth control. Well, I mean, Hitler thought that if you were Jewish, that you had given up the right to be a mother and hed sterilize people as well. They both say that they actually often forget that they're not biologically related. Okay, and then I just had to accept it. And very often, one of them will just go crashing into the DNA and it'll stick there like a barnacle or a glob of peanut butter. BARBARA HARRIS: Because he couldn't hold formula down. Did that scare you at all? MICHAEL MEANEY: Yep, Im a professor in the faculty of medicine at McGill University in Montreal. MICHAEL MEANEY: So thats the reason, of course, that we work with rats because we can get inside the brain. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Barbara Harris says she's convinced more than a dozen women], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Have accepted her offer to be sterilized in return for money.]. Females seem to hate laying eggs in the water, but is that the end of the story? I'm Carl Zimmer's daughter. When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. CARL ZIMMER: To build these terrariums and aquariums and stock them with animals. KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Yes, he was retarded. The results make it probable that our descendants will learn more quickly what we know well, will execute more easily what we have accomplished with great effort, will be able to withstand what injured us almost to the point of death. BARBARA HARRIS: Yeah, the social worker called and told me the mother had given birth. Higher frequencies of heart attacks. JAD: So its like grandpa's struggle is jumping forward and giving me a leg up? ROBERT: Okay, so lets get going and stick with your boy, Lamarck, just for a sec. More brain cells? You know? We neuter them.". And looking at these swings in fortune, Olov realized what he had here was Because with all this data, he and his team could follow families forward in time, through the generations. DESTINY HARRIS: Oh my goodness. Yeah, there you go. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. Birth mother's name was actually the same as me, so, Barbara. That's a lot of people. BARBARA HARRIS: Saying the mother had given birth to a baby girl, did we want her? JAD: It makes a kind of common sense, really. Cause we were talking to science writer, Carl Zimmer, and he told us that back in the early 1900s, this tension between Lamarck and Darwin got extra tense. [laughs[ So yeah, it's embarrassing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. 10 Controversial And Thought-Provoking 'Radiolab' Episodes. Plus, you know, Lamarck didn't get all the biological details right. PAT: That's a lot of people. CARL ZIMMER: He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. [laughs] "This may hurt you my son, but I'm doing it for my grandchildren.". As he's doing his rounds, he stops by the midwife toad terrarium, he looks down at that little male toad with grapes stuck to his legs and he wonders, "How adaptable is that little guy?" And well just let the old yahoos from whom we inheritedededed inherited it take it away. She started to wish again that she could have a daughter. JAD: And these things are called, apparently, methyl groups. PAT: Barbara tried to get a law passed requiring just that. And when she had a baby. And he said, "Barbara, I'm not buying a school bus." PAT: Did that scare you at all? It's off-limits. JEAN KEAN: My name is Jean Kean. Its gonna get messy. And when it came time to mate, the males and the females, they would mate in the water. JAD: And then, Michael just launched into this thing. Its just That's just how I've always looked at it. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: To any drug-addicted woman who will agree to have no more babies. All jokes aside. PAT'S MOM: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. Okay, you want to say bye? I mean like, with the licking, is it a teaching thing where, you know, the babies become good mothers because FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: They've seen it and they've repeated the experience. The results are obvious to you. See, this is the story of science that doesn't get told. Suddenly you're marked. There were four girls and Barbara and Destiny told me that a few years ago they found three of them and they all either were in college or had finished college. And Destiny says she doesn't really care DESTINY HARRIS: I got these genes from somewhere, but I kind of feel like she was a surrogate, like she carried me for my real mom. And Destiny was in the other room, sleeping or something, I'm not sure. So yeah, she keeps me busy. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Do you see the owl?]. I'm going to graduate with honors and one day I'm going to be able to tell her, "Look, I did this. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. ROBERT: But, this hour were gonna fight this sort of sad sack feeling of inevitability and impotence. What a name, you've got to like this guy. All rights reserved. I know! But then, a few years would pass, crops would bounce back. We'll just be honest. CARL ZIMMER: But there were a lot of skeptics. Nice, cool water. Kammerer thought, "Wow.". SAM KEAN: Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. Radio Lab: Into the Brain of a Liar March 6, 2008 We all lie once a day or so, according to most studies. I don't know where she gets that from. JAD: Well, if a mother a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. SAM KEAN: The sperm carries these marks to the next generation. She'll be two in January. Michael was in school and he got interested in a very, very basic question about how things get passed down? I'm the founder and director of Project Prevention. So here's what you're going to notice. DESTINY HARRIS: I do mean that. You've got these toads who hate water. So here's what you're going to notice. The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. So then over the next 70 some odd years, Lamarck basically became the poster boy for, like, the big dumb idea, the idea that you want to believe in but that you know isn't true. ], Sterilized? And Barbara found herself returning to a thought she'd kind of always had. ROBERT: I think what's weird here is that is that we started trying to make a difference in our children and now we're surprise attacked by our grandparents. Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense. So yeah, she keeps me busy. Peanut butter, there we go. This was a really radical place at the time because you have to remember that people studying animals up till now, they were basically studying preserved specimens, and so on. And I was a waitress, I worked for IHOP for over 30 years. It's such a surprising result. The event that really sets this story in motion, the set of events, happened a few months after Barbara had brought Destiny home. OLOV BYGREN: Looking for patterns in cardiovascular diseases, high blood pressure, and such. We talked to her for a little while and PAT: At a certain point the social worker pulls out a stack of papers. Kammerer, for one, was sent off to work as a sensor for the Austrian military. When you explore what makes people tick or how the universe . It would be wrong to think that they represent all women who use drugs while they're pregnant. From pneumonia. So that's fun. PAT: But a year later, the social worker called again. So. ROBERT: They could eat twice, three times as much. Okay, I'm here. Here, Kammerer's was saying, "You can do this even on a physical level.". ROBERT: Because the Soviets, they believe in Karl Marx's idea that human beings were an improvable species, that if you can change the conditions around people, you change the people. BARBARA HARRIS: Barbara Harris. JAD: Thanks to Olov Bygren, reporter Pejk Malinovski and KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Karin Borgkvist Ljung, and I'm a senior archivist at the National Archive in Marieberg in Stockholm. It's only the mechanisms are not so clear. Maybe they'd try and jump back out, but it was still hot so they'd have to jump back in. He actually coined the word biology, too. 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