I was answering your question to me and what Barbara wrote to H.U.G. Sproul Jr to have a problem with alcohol and be getting drunk repeatedly as people are saying. What I came back to say is that just as most Christians, churches, and Christian teaching is naive and ineffectual at tackling domestic violence, alcoholism, depression, and many other issues, that secular counseling or mainstream mental health treatment does not always work, either. Sadly, we smelled the booze again and he admitted that he was choosing to drink. He had an older brother who died an alcoholic. They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. @ T J Mercer: RC Sproul, Jr. was interacting with people, so I joined in. Its hard here to put everything in words, but I really dont think we are very far apart on this issue. 2. Whoa, what? The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! However, due to the toxic nature of these 6 practices in a group fellowship, do not allow these.). Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? I wouldnt blame you. 2. Funeral Home Services for Robert are being provided by . More than likely RC Sproul Jr is a functional alcoholic, if not a high-functioning alcoholic. Hes held down a successful career (or at least hes made a lot of money), been a reasonably successful father, has been held in high esteem by many people, etc. Would you please forgive me? all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. Again, 1 Cor. That was the time between his arrest in November 2016 and his plea deal. @ Velour: Vesta Voorhis Sproul (age 84) is currently listed at 347 Bellview Pl, Sanford, 32771 Florida and is affiliated with the Republican Party of Florida. I have never shared this before but I just needed to. If you have a problem, cut it out or abstain. Its all part of that raising the bottom thing you claim to support. instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other.. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. @ Velour: BFM2000 is not, to my knowledge, PENAL, rather just substitutionary. Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? Today that little churchis her home church. Over the years we formed connections with hospitals, rehabs, special schools. Someone else mentioned Galatians 6. He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? This often does not happen because money is not available. After looking at the church website, I could find no indication that it was a Foursquare church; however, I did find this which has the same Pine Hills Church listed and has Foursquare shown at the top of the site. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jr's children still deal with today. But to just say that someone with a drinking/substance abuse problem in the church should be publicly humiliated is NOT how substance abuse is supposed to be handled or treated. More than that, how do you know what their drinking habits are? One of the grandparents of my generation has relatively early dementia-the same thing that killed his mother and the same disease that has now stricken him. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. Intriguing. Sproul Jr. and his family in my prayers. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. I don't like the other idea of other people having to go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses. Wow! We are the body of Christ. Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 4. (I figured that if you had a DSM book that you were in mental health in some capacity, and Ive read your other comments on other threads.). Gail wrote: or a swindler [scams, cons] Maybe you were talking about a different comment than the one Im talking about, though. And yes, I read the story above about the alcoholic lady who died, and her church paid for her funeral. In other words, my daughters brain tumor was a disease that was not caused by her behavior or the behavior of those around her. And looking at this from a third angle: Even if the person may have been hurt they may still be absolutely correct and objective in what they say. Also, I am never remotely tempted to pretend that I could give up insulin or that I dont have a problem controlling my blood sugar. The pain is awful, particularly when loved ones have been snatched away because someone foolishly chose to drink and drive. Being Married to a Pedophile: A Wife Speaks Out and Offers Hope to Other Wives ofPedophiles, Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Motion The Revealer - Olusolacoker.com, Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Movement The Revealer, Claire Roise: Oppressed and Defenseless Women within the Church, Flying Free: Help for Survivors of Emotional Abuse, Lori Anne Thompson on Clergy Sexual Misconduct. I get that church is not just a building, its people. I am sure RC2 was given all types of preferential treatment due his being related to RC. IMO, some things about the so called Dark Ages were not all that dark, and this idea is one. Well,this is one way. Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. I didnt even over-eat. By the way, I am agnostic on the topic of if an alcoholic should be kicked out of church or not. She just didnt mention it, and she didnt need to. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. None of the doctors ever diagnosed the root of my problem. Perhaps on my wedding anniversary. People need to wake up, I agree; and TURN from these deceivers and their despicable fatalistic, man-made gospel. Good heavens! All the years of being there listening to the beratement and anger gave me the ability to listen as well to the pain and fear. He has to be protected from injuring himself or others-regardless of the fact that it is a sickness and not a crime. We all have to lay down our aggressions, even those aggressions which we cloak in sugar and spice and everything nice. See also Tullian Tchividjian. Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. Look at Pauls comment about a little leaven. In my recent bout with serious pain from psoriatic arthritis, I found that 4 oz. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. Pennsylvania. So what did his parents hope to teach him from that? Some might call it being accountable. so pushing anger down is exhausting and depressing and being able to BE angry openly is a step in the right direction, My husband likes to read Peanuts and is always amused when he can announce that Im having a crab-in a la Lucy Van Pelt. That took many months to heal. I offered H.A. Am very familiar with alcoholism, drug abuse. Picking up the bottle is a CHOICE, and thus a moral failure and sometimes a crime (when they get behind the wheel drunk). That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. The pain is awful, particularly when loved ones have been snatched away because someone foolishly chose to drink and drive. Best to ignore the barbs. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. He was a writer, known for Calvinist (2017), The Parables of Jesus (2012) and The Gospel: 2016 National Conference (2016). The recidivism statistics bear this out, and the treatment programs are just as disappointing. started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. what a moron. So I was only saying what the Bible says. A couple things stood out to me: Alcoholism changes the persons brain. SEE? and who was reeling from Fridays put downs and for calls to kick alcoholics out of churches. If you are a subordinate leader (and maybe not always in lock-step with the top dog), you will be more likely to be asked or forced to step down. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? Confession that his drunkenness IS sin (it sounds like that alone would be a huge step), then repentance toward God (making a U-turn and living a completely different life) AND toward others (asking forgiveness of everyone he has wronged) these would be HUGE steps for him. This Is NOT a Parody! Thank you Lisa for your comments here. He had never slept through an earthquake before even the small ones. My brother is a drug addict & alcoholic. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. When I was a month away from turning 13, I was invited by a friend to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents. I sometimes walked around with a soda pop in one hand. The responsibility of a pastor/leader is FAR greater, not less. So Velour, I ask you to please withdraw your false statements about what we do on A Cry For Justice. I know that kind of thing happens often these days. The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. The Bible does not teach that all sins are equal in severity. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. He needs to be in treatment and his family needs to be in special support groups for dealing with an alcoholic relative and learn how to take care of themselves. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. But to take that info and post it here? The idea of publicly humiliating people who have serious problems that require medical intervention does not sit well with me. so I think that the front-loaded moral and ethical formation of a young person in the Church is a kind of preventative and strengthening function, far more positive than punishment. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! I've been following with some interest his recent arrest for drunk driving with his kids in the car. Sadly, too many churches disapprove of love and kindness, or cherry pick who is deserving. I qualified my response to Lea, in case you missed it, that most of the alcoholics in my area go to in-patient treatment. And then there are those who say stuff that is good as gold and kind to the core. The objective and end goal must always be repentance unto restoration., I would agree the church in the dark ages had a very bad reputation when it came to church discipline, Spanish Inquisition and all that. I could have had my mother die at home like she begged and that is a sin I will never forgive myself for. And taking insulin doesnt have a continual negative effect on my choices and behaviour; quite the reverse. I cant imagine the pain and loss you experienced. Julie Anne gave you a good part of the answer. I dont know where the line is. When I had a knee replacement, they always prescribe opioids for the serious post op pain. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. Our sin is as sinful as is his. I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). RC Jr also refused to leave. If you posted something negative about Dee or Barb at my blog as you have here, Id remove your comment, too. I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. Sproul Jr.s spiritual abuse of former church members and entire families. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: I will admit one thing, I have never made more than 50 K a year in my entire life and I work 60-90 hours a week which includes much of my advocacy work. 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